Eben Pagan interviews marketing expert Dean Jackson, exploring fundamental marketing principles and the evolution from traditional to direct marketing. They discuss the concept of finding starving crowds, the importance of market-first thinking, and how to build systems that attract clients rather than chasing them.
Eben Interviews Dean Jackson A Marketing Sharp Shooter
Dean Jackson opens with his comprehensive view that marketing encompasses every business interaction and communication. This foundational perspective reframes how entrepreneurs should think about presenting themselves and their offerings to the world.
Through the college hot dog cart success story, Dean illustrates how positioning yourself in front of people who already want what you have creates effortless sales. The key lesson is finding demand rather than creating it through persuasion.
Dean shares his breakthrough transition from real estate cold calling to automated lead generation through targeted direct mail. This shift demonstrates how written words can attract prospects instead of requiring constant outbound effort.
The discussion concludes with insights about Cialdini's weapons of influence as automatic psychological reactions already present in every situation. Rather than manipulation tactics, these are natural forces that can be understood and aligned with ethically.
“I've come to realize that marketing is everything. That's the one word to describe marketing. And I mean that both literally and figuratively you know I mean it everything that you do every interaction that you have everything that you present to people every communication that you have it all marketing”
— Dean Jackson▶ 2:37
According to Dean Jackson, marketing is everything - every interaction, communication, and presentation you have with people. It encompasses all business communications, not just advertising or sales.
“we had exactly what that market wanted. And we were right in their path. We knew they were going to be coming out that door and they were going to be hungry. And we were right there with what they wanted. And that's the advantage of a starving crowd.”
— Dean Jackson▶ 4:46
Find a starving crowd by positioning yourself in the path of people who already want what you have, rather than trying to create demand. Look for situations where people are expressing a need and position yourself to fulfill it immediately.
“direct marketing really is about finding the people who you know want what you have and communicating with them directly”
— Dean Jackson▶ 9:01
Direct marketing is specifically about finding people who want what you have and communicating with them directly, rather than broad general marketing. It focuses on targeted communication to high-probability prospects.
“the first and biggest, the life-changing shift, of course, was learning that you could put words on paper that would get people to call you versus you having to call people”
— Dean Jackson▶ 9:35
Write compelling words on paper (like postcards or letters) and mail them to high-probability lists of people who likely want your service. This creates inbound leads instead of outbound cold calls.
“Neither of us had this burning desire to be in the hot dog business or to be hot dog artists or anything crazy like that It was really that you know we saw that from being patrons you know at the place realizing there no food here and coming out and saying man I wish there was some food here”
— Dean Jackson▶ 7:28
Entrepreneurs often start with what they want to create or express rather than researching what the market actually wants. This leads to trying to convince people rather than finding those who already have the problem you solve.
“even though he calls them weapons of influence, it's that these are things that are happening and are in play, whether you realize it or not. You're not deploying something that is not already there in the situation.”
— Dean Jackson▶ 55:46
Cialdini's six weapons of influence are psychological principles that create automatic reactions in people. They're always operating in every situation whether you realize it or not - understanding them gives you perspective rather than deploying new tactics.
Dean Jackson's proven method for positioning yourself in front of people who already want what you have
Become a customer first
Experience the market as a patron to identify unmet needs and pain points
Identify the hungry crowd
Find people who are already expressing a need or desire for what you could provide
Position in their path
Place yourself where these people will naturally encounter you when they need your solution
Simplify your offering
Create a simple menu of exactly what they want, not what you want to express creatively
Charge premium prices
When you're the only solution in the right place at the right time, you can command higher prices
Marketing is everything - every interaction, communication, and presentation to people constitutes marketing
Dean Jackson's perspective after 15+ years working with Eben Pagan on various business projects, emphasizing that marketing encompasses all business communications
Effective marketing is about finding out what people want and getting in front of them, not convincing people to buy what you have
Dean Jackson's analogy of asking people what they want (hamburgers) then coming back saying 'Hey, hamburgers, get your hamburgers here'
A starving crowd is the most valuable business advantage you can have
Gary Halbert's famous question about hamburger stand advantages, referenced by both speakers as foundational direct marketing wisdom
Position yourself in the path of hungry customers rather than chasing them around neighborhoods
Dean Jackson's college hot dog cart success - making $800-1200 per night outside nightclub vs. rolling cart through residential streets during weekdays
Simplify your offering to match what the hungry crowd wants, not what you want to express artistically
Hot dog cart had only 6 menu items: hot dog, sausage, potato chips, Coke, Diet Coke, or Sprite - 'You can have anything you want as long as it's one of those six'
Direct marketing means finding people who want what you have and communicating with them directly
Dean Jackson's definition distinguishing direct marketing from general marketing approaches
Written words on paper can get people to call you versus you having to call people - this breaks the hamster wheel of cold calling
Dean Jackson's transition from real estate cold calling to mailing postcards to apartment dwellers, creating automated lead generation
Find the market first and realize what they want, then provide it to them, rather than hoping to convince people they want what you've created
Hot dog cart success came from being patrons first, realizing 'man I wish there was some food here' and seeing the opportunity, not from wanting to be in the hot dog business
Cialdini's six weapons of influence are always in play whether you realize it or not - understanding them gives you perspective rather than deploying something new
Reference to interview with Robert Cialdini and his concept that influence principles are automatic reactions already happening in every situation
Marketing is everything - every interaction, communication, and presentation to people constitutes marketing
▶ 2:37Effective marketing is about finding out what people want and getting in front of them, not convincing people to buy what you have
▶ 3:10A starving crowd is the most valuable business advantage you can have
▶ 3:46Position yourself in the path of hungry customers rather than chasing them around neighborhoods
▶ 4:19Simplify your offering to match what the hungry crowd wants, not what you want to express artistically
▶ 6:36Direct marketing means finding people who want what you have and communicating with them directly
▶ 9:01Written words on paper can get people to call you versus you having to call people - this breaks the hamster wheel of cold calling
▶ 9:35Find the market first and realize what they want, then provide it to them, rather than hoping to convince people they want what you've created
▶ 7:28Cialdini's six weapons of influence are always in play whether you realize it or not - understanding them gives you perspective rather than deploying something new
▶ 55:46Claim: “Marketing is about convincing people to buy your stuff or talking people who don't want it into wanting it”
Reframe: Marketing is about finding out what people want and then getting in front of them with exactly that
Claim: “You need to express yourself creatively and have a unique product offering”
Reframe: Simplify your offering to match what the starving crowd actually wants, not what you want to create artistically
Claim: “You deploy influence techniques as weapons to persuade people”
Reframe: Influence principles are already in play in every situation - you can't not use them, so you might as well understand them
“Marketing is everything. That's the one word to describe marketing.”
“I'd want a hungry crowd”
“You can have anything you want as long as it's one of those six”
“learning that you could put words on paper that would get people to call you versus you having to call people”
“You're not deploying something that is not already there in the situation”
Marketing Your Products So People Buy with Eben Pagan
Learn Eben Pagan's secret 'stick' technique that can be far more profitable than advertising or customer acquisition - it's about making your existing customers love what they buy.
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Build Relationship Customer
The counterintuitive business skill that Eben Pagan says can make you the most money isn't what you think.
Moving The Free Line
Discover the counterintuitive marketing strategy that helped Eben Pagan generate millions by giving away his best ideas for free.
Persuade Masses
The follow-up strategy that turned Eben's business from a single ebook into a multi-million dollar empire—and how it can 10x your results too.
Coaching Strategies
Business Frameworks
Common Mistakes
The 'stick' technique for increasing profits focuses on getting customers to use and enjoy products they buy rather than putting them on a shelf and asking for refunds
Eben learned this technique from Joe and implemented it successfully in his own business, describing it as 'far more profitable than advertising or getting more customers'
Direct response marketing is designed to get a response back, whereas image or institutional advertising is designed to create name recognition
Joe explains this as the fundamental difference between marketing approaches - anything that puts a message out there designed to get people to actually respond versus just brand awareness
Compassion is the most valuable and profitable business skill because it allows you to understand customers' irrational fantasies and emotional drives
Eben Pagan specifically states that when you can 'shut all of your stuff down and really imagine what it's like to be another human being' and speak to them in their language, 'magical things happen' in business
Relationship building follows a specific formula: relate to someone, find common understanding, continue relating until you feel the emotion of relation, then form a lasting relationship
Eben breaks down the etymology showing that 'relate' is the root of 'relationship' and explains the process: 'if we keep relating, we keep finding where we have commonality, we keep connecting, we eventually begin to feel this emotional feeling like, wow, I feel related to you'
